“We Both Cried, but for Completely Different Reasons”

“Jeannette and I are sitting here in the barn of my house in Hudson. It's August 13, 2015. We are wrapping up our four days of conversations, during which we discussed so many topics. We are thinking about the book that will come out of this. I look at my notes and say, 'It's about the triumph of violence.' And Jeannette repeats, 'Yes, really, it's about the triumph over violence.'”

These lines greet the reader upon opening the book Psychoanalyst Meets Marina Abramović, published 2018 in German and English by Scheidegger & Spiess. The tone suggests a deep sense of trust between the two women during the creation of the work, which has recently been republished in a new edition.

But how did the project come about in the first place? And how did this four-day meeting unfold? Did it involve what we laypeople might consider boundary-pushing experiences—after all, the conversation revolved around such topics as violence, power, and powerlessness, which are the specialties of the Zurich-based psychoanalyst. To explore these and other interesting aspects of the “making of” this book, we sat down with Jeannette Fischer for an interview.

Ms. Fischer, since this project is based on a close and quasi-familial relationship between Marina Abramović and yourself, may I ask who took the first step?

(laughs) That was me. But I must preface that with the fact that we had known each other for twenty years by that time. And over this long period, we had repeatedly tried to collaborate on something or other.

Given that it took so long to materialize, I assume you must have devised a precise strategy to finally succeed.

No, not at all. On the contrary, it happened entirely naturally. At some point, I had the idea for this series of conversations about psychoanalysis and art. I spontaneously wrote to her, and she immediately agreed.

Perhaps because there was already a basis of trust?

That certainly helped. The first time I ever noticed Marina’s art was during the 1998 exhibition Artist Body. Public Body at the Kunsthalle Bern. I called her on the spot and asked to speak to her privately. In that conversation, she quickly became interested in psychoanalytic ideas. Since I was equally interested in her psychologically and physically extreme performance art, our first meeting was also the beginning of our friendly relationship. And over the years, many more meetings followed.

However, the one in the summer of 2015 at Abramović's house in Hudson, New York, unquestionably held a special significance. In sports, one prepares for great challenges through targeted physical and mental training. What was your preparation for these conversations?

I must admit: I didn't prepare at all.

Pardon?

(laughs) Actually, my only concern was missing my flight. Apart from that, I was completely relaxed; after all, in all my years of practice, I’ve learned to conduct conversations through free association . . . knowing that this method would cause neither her nor myself any stress.

And it worked?

It did. They were four very intense days . . .

. . . but you weren't together around the clock?

No, we had made a very clear arrangement. We agreed to start our conversation at roughly the same time each morning, always in the same room and on the same chairs. We would have a shared lunch break. But we also agreed that we’d give each other space outside of these times.

What was her reaction to your interpretations?

Since I didn't have any intention in mind, I can't really answer that. Fortunately, many people reached out to say that they could identify with the content in many places. So the target audience really emerged through the publication itself (laughs). But primarily the book is our baby, and it brings joy to the both of us.

Interview by Thomas Wyss